Conflicting Narratives: a conversation about Palestinians, Jews, Muslims, Noam Chomsky and a little code.
I run a loose organization of human rights advocates and volunteers, many of whom are young — high school or college — and from all over the world. Doing human rights work can be clear: no one should be detained without trial, regardless of who they are. And generally we try to keep our focus on these clear lines.
However, we work in the context of bigger pictures, and the narratives around those bigger pictures can be diametrically opposed, even among those of us committed to individual human rights. Luckily the cooperation in the group on the realities, makes us able to trust one another in discussions — at least I hope that it does — and sometimes tackle a conversation about problematic narratives.
We had such a conversation today, in our group for Palestinian human rights, where we normally cover the work of b’Tselem, talk about how to effectively lobby for body cameras, search for economic opportunities for individuals, and raise individual cases of injustice.
Note that I will quote things below, that may be triggering. Please do not take out of context! This is a slightly edited version of our conversation, close to verbatim:
it starts, with a young volunteer submitting a rough draft of a writing piece
Hasan 4:21 PM
Thoughts?
Word Document
Trump and Israel.docx
8 kB Word Document8 kB — Click to view
```On December 6, 2017, Donald Trump officially recognized Jerusalem as Israel’s capital; which is like spitting on the ever-to-be possibility of peace between Palestine and Israel. Why did Trump, who called himself a fair and humble guy, do this? Here’s how, I’ll start explaining it fromthe roots of Zionism.In the Bible it is said that God chose Jerusalem as the land for the Jews, and many elites acted and continue to act upon this. Donald Trump, Mike Pence, and elites during World War II are good examples. Right after WWII, zionist emmisiares took over the the concentration camps and forcefully sent “good human material” to Palestine. They even had a principal stating that men and woman between the ages of 17 and 35 forcefully had to be shipped of to Palestine. This means one thing: zionist elites exist, and they have tremendous power. This demonstrationof power can also be perceived in contemporary events as well, like the recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital```
Golda Velez 8:15 PM
Uh — I’m not comfortable with this doc, with phrases like ‘.zionist emmisiares took over the the concentration camps and forcefully sent “good human material” to Palestine. They even had a principal stating that men and woman between the ages of 17 and 35 forcefully had to be shipped of to Palestine. This means one thing: zionist elites exist, and they have tremendous power.” ‘
This has a lot of red flags in it and also I don’t think it is historically accurate at all — by the way I’m Jewish myself — while I strongly support improvement in the human rights for those in Gaza and West Bank, I think these sort of historical narratives can be really harmful and stir up hate against groups of people, which we are totally against doing.
The thing is, each of us may believe different historical narratives or framings of large situations — the one I grew up hearing was quite the opposite — I hope that we can come together on the idea that every person deserves justice and opportunity, and work on very concrete things that are happening now that need to be fixed.
8:15
for example, we could work on pressing for the IDF to have body cameras, which would help with making evidence available for all to see, and prevent abuses
8:16
we also have folks in the Gaza strip who would like to work on expanding economic opportunity
8:16
we can also follow and promote the work of groups like b’Tselem that gather meticulously documented stories of abuse happening now, and insist that it be followed up on
8:21
I do agree that Trump made the situation in Israel much worse thru his support of what I believe is a corrupt nationalist government by Bibi Netanyahu — that is my personal opinion tho and not appropriate for Raise the Voices — and that the putting forward of a ‘peace plan’ with no input from the Palestinians was reprehensible.
But as Raise the Voices, we avoid making sweeping and controversial political statements, and instead focus on concrete cases and very specific patterns of injustice that materially affect individuals. So we can write about the need for body cameras, the lack of vaccinations, or the inability to travel from the Gaza strip, or the lack of opportunity for teens there, or other very specific things where we can interview someone on the ground, and where we have an actionable request that we are asking someone to do, but not to make these kind of sweeping narratives — and especially not ones that label groups of people.
Does that make sense?
8:21
@Hasan ^ — if you’d like to chat, we can schedule some time -
Hasan 10:42 AM
I understand what you’re trying to say, and I mean no offense. I read this information off the book “on Palestine” by Noam Chomsky. I didn’t make this information up, and I think Chomsky’s a reliable guy.
10:43
I can send you the exact pages of the pdf of the book
10:46
Pg. 59–60
PDF
On Palestine by Noam Chomsky, Ilan Pappé (z-lib.org).epub.pdf
800 kB PDF800 kB — Click to view
10:47
Please, if this is wrong, tell me. I want to know the truth, and I believed Chomsky when he said it because he supported his claims with a book by Yosef Grodzinsky, “In the Shadow of the Holocaust: The Struggle Between Jews and Zionists in the Aftermath of World War II”.
Golda Velez 11:05 AM
Yeah, I know Chomsky — I’ve met him here in Tucson. But I think he is dead wrong about putting it this way, labelling large groups of people in this way leads to violence and hatred
11:05
the thing about Jews anyway is we all disagree on everything. Tho some Jews will disagree with me about that :-)
11:06
the “truth” is a hard thing indeed! because we as humans want to make clear narratives out of a huge complex world
11:07
so I think its ok if we don’t agree on the narrative to tell, if we can agree on what to do in a specific case — that is why I’d like to find a case of a Palestinian journalist who is in prison for what we believe are political reasons, and we could focus on that; and also to raise and research into specific cases identified by b’Tselem, as they go out into the field and really interview people.
11:08
And we do have a requested action from a friend of mine in Gaza, for helping to find remote work for coders there.
11:08
Have you seen GazaSkyGeeks.com/ ?
11:10
To me, cases are like the literal ‘test cases’ of a narrative — if your overarching narrative is leading to anything useful, if it leads to helping or protecting a vulnerable person, then its a useful narrative; if it leads to violence against an innocent person, its very not useful. I guess its like a physics based approach.
11:12
(So in this sense, the biggest “disproof” of the anti-zionist narrative, to me, is that it led in the past to bombing of school buses. So if it was used for that, to me it is thoroughly discredited)
Hasan 11:13 AM
I agree
11:13
The bombing of school busses Are certainly wrong, but you have to understand that the main causes of terrorism are aggression and oppression (edited)
Golda Velez 11:14 AM
well — I am not sure about that. I think terrorism against innocent people is never excusable
11:14
the cover story varies
Hasan 11:14 AM
I didnt justify what they did.
Golda Velez 11:14 AM
I think a victim narrative is very harmful, and Jews also have a victim narrative that I frequently argue against
11:14
yes, I just disagree that this is a main cause of terrorism
Hasan 11:20 AM
The Iraq war caused more terrorism because of the power vacuum, aggression, and oppression, the reason hamas came to power was because the gazans were desperate. What do you think is the main cause of terrorism?
Golda Velez 11:22 AM
good question — I think it is a combination of things — I don’t really know because I don’t know any terrorist people personally, but my guess is
- a large group of disconnected and disaffected people (the world is full of these right now!)
- a manipulative leader that sells them a victim story that they are being oppressed by the world (which in fact they might be, partly) and picks a convenient scapegoat (like “the Jews”, when it is partly some specific individual jews but also partly their own government, and in some cases other nearby and quite local actors — and sometimes the scapegoat is not involved at all)
- lack of an ecosystem with good feedback — a justice system for harm, and opportunities for doing useful things and getting rewards
11:22
these are very good thoughtful questions thanks for bringing up — I’d like to write about this personally, tho probably not at raisethevoices -
11:24
The idea of Jews as global elites controlling the world tho is pretty prevalent and somehow has become part of our history that Jews are often used as scapegoats by unpopular rulers — that is like every holiday we have :-)
Hasan 11:24 AM
No but the thing is terrorism always happens when the people are living in horrible circumstances. It’s how the cia managed to overthrow so many governments after all. Then some leader promises “paradise” or whatever and the people follow.
Golda Velez 11:25 AM
Well I would call Jan 6 terrorism, and those people are not living in horrible circumstances
Hasan 11:25 AM
No no no… I didn’t blame the jewssssss.
Golda Velez 11:25 AM
ha sorry no I didn’t mean you did
11:25
I just had to add that — its like our tradition, every holiday is like ‘they tried to kill us, they failed, lets eat’ — sorry adding light thought but it is a really serious subject
11:26
but yes I wasn’t really aware growing up what the CIA was doing, it was really bad, people are still suffering the consequences of it now
11:26
luckily Chile is finally breaking out, I think
Hasan 11:27 AM
Yes, I’m really sorry for that; Jews are usually so successful and people become soar losers. However the persecution seems to be leaning towards Muslims nowadays, with the uyghurs, islamaphobia, and so on. I’m not denying the existence of anti-semitism however
Golda Velez 11:28 AM
for sure — Muslims are in my view the most oppressed and attacked group everywhere, right now
11:28
a woman I talked to once said she thought it was bc the Koran tells Muslims to stand up against totalitarianism. I don’t know tho
11:29
And also within Muslim countries, many people are really in danger.
11:29
(so not necessarily from outsiders)
11:30
To me its not about the religion — many of the people we are defending aren’t particularly religious — but yes Muslim or Arab peoples are being attacked as groups
Hasan 11:31 AM
I totally agree. What I noticed is that the dangers root is usually power; erdogan loves it, putin cant leave it, MBs bathes in it, gadafi exploited it and so on
Golda Velez 11:31 AM
yes! all the rest imho is just a cover story
11:31
Stalin certainly thought so
Hasan 11:32 AM
Yeah I know right. It’s crazy what politicians do for power
Golda Velez 11:32 AM
ha its just cancer, out of control
11:32
we are the immune system here :-)
11:33
(but have to be careful not to be misused)
Hasan 11:33 AM
Yup
Golda Velez 11:33 AM
so yeah my thought is if we genuinely connect to each other as people and make a strong network, we can fight against these manipulative politicians
Hasan 11:33 AM
I fully concur
Golda Velez 11:34 AM
cool! we should post this discussion somewhere — I think it is interesting — at least to me :-).
and then I suppose get back to the cases! We might get a chance to meet with a congressional chief of staff Monday and have to decide exactly what info to give him
Hasan 11:34 AM
But it sure is going to be difficult. Do you know about the propaganda model
Golda Velez 11:35 AM
hm not by this name? definitely we see that totalitarians care very much about controlling the narrative thru their propaganda, that’s why they keep putting journalists and activists in prison…
Hasan 11:36 AM
It’s for the USA though, it’s a couple of rules about journalism in the USA that Howard zinn and Chomsky verified. You not knowing it is proof it’s valid
Golda Velez 11:36 AM
uh — I disagree
11:36
we don’t all use the same names and models
11:37
and I don’t trust everything Chomsky says even tho he is a good guy in many ways
11:37
I don’t pay much attention to him really. And I can tell you there is not a single rule for journalism in the US
Hasan 11:37 AM
Not for like these journals, it’s like for journalist corporations like The NY Times and cnn
Golda Velez 11:38 AM
well, I would not go by one particular study or conclusion — there may be some validity to it but giving it a name does not make it an axiom
Hasan 11:38 AM
I’ve been reading a lot of Chomsky lately:sweat_smile:
Golda Velez 11:38 AM
ha! he is stimulating but take it with a grain of salt
11:38
I do like that he tried to protect Lula in Brazil
11:38
His wife is Brazilian so he has deeper info there.
Hasan 11:39 AM
I mean he’s revealing a ton of information that isn’t known; at least for me.
Golda Velez 11:39 AM
well, he is drawing conclusions, they may or may not be valid
Hasan 11:39 AM
Yeah I guess
Golda Velez 11:39 AM
he is framing things, and he finds this framing useful; like I said I want to see the test of how it is used
Hasan 11:40 AM
This is the propaganda model link: https://chomsky.info/consent01/ maybe you can check it out
chomsky.infochomsky.info
A Propaganda Model, by Noam Chomsky (Excerpted from Manufacturing Consent)
The Noam Chomsky Website.
```
A Propaganda Model
Edward Herman & Noam Chomsky
Excerpted from Manufacturing Consent, 1988
The mass media serve as a system for communicating messages and symbols to the general populace. It is their function to amuse, entertain, and inform, and to inculcate individuals with the values, beliefs, and codes of behavior that will integrate them into the institutional structures of the larger society. In a world of concentrated wealth and major conflicts of class interest, to fulfill this role requires systematic propaganda.In countries where the levers of power are in the hands of a state bureaucracy, the monopolistic control over the media, often supplemented by official censorship, makes it clear that the media serve the ends of a dominant elite. It is much more difficult to see a propaganda system at work where the media are private and formal censorship is absent….
```
Golda Velez 11:41 AM
ah yes, I do agree with the profit model problem, I’m working on that separately in the What’s Cookin’ initiative, to have a more broad values based organization that can grow
11:41
the problem is not limited to the news media
11:42
but — here is the thing — the solutions that have been tried so far have not been so great. Central control regardless of the dogma supposedly behind it just leads to worse cancers. My favorite Russian saying is
“Who guards the guards”
11:42
The problem, ok sure, it is present — but make sure the solution is not worse!
11:42
I do think we should innovate to solve it tho, in different forms of organizatin — actually that is what I was setting out to write about this morning… :slightly_smiling_face:
Hasan 11:43 AM
Yeah that’s true, in a country where money is the incentive, who will give it? If its the government they may as well manipulate the media. So I agree, finding a solution is like a paradox
Golda Velez 11:44 AM
The whole Communism thing — feh! Stalin killed so many more people — that is why Communism is discredited. Enough about it already. Can’t people move on from a 1920’s idea that didn’t work too well?
11:44
we do need to work on different rich cooperative structures that can grow and compete with stakeholder control and checks and balances.
11:44
that is my long term solution, I am writing about it too — if you are interested we have the What’s Cookin’ group but we talk very little and code a lot :-)
Hasan 11:45 AM
I don’t even know how to code; I’m learning Java in hs right now though:sweat_smile:
Golda Velez 11:45 AM
cool! Yeah we use Python and Javascript mostly, also Flutter/Dart
11:46
neat that you are thinking about all these things! honestly I would like to publish the dialog — I could change the names — let me know what you think, consider it later
Hasan 11:48 AM
Sure!
